For Kay, and other assorted intelligent fauna
I'm not a Misogynist. Not an mcp either.
I don't hate women, i don't resent them. I'd be stupid to condemn the better part of humanity for their idiosyncrasies, no matter how much they mess with our heads.
We are all players Kay, the fact is that we need to be. We, men, are creeps. No doubt about it. There are no Halos on anyone's head be it man or woman. The fact is that game playing adds a spice to the whole process of courtship that is essential to making romantic memories worth remembering. But its later on in a relationship that the game playing should stop but doesn't. And its later on in the relationship that the power to hurt is more with the woman than with the man. I didn't mean to make women sound monstrous. Rest assured that's not how i see them. But the fact is, that albeit it’s no walk in the park... but moving on is something that women, owing to a stronger threshold against ephemeral angst are better equipped to deal with... it only comes into play when the relationship has taken on a profound meaning in their own lives.
Men, when truly allow themselves to belong to another, find it all but impossible to let go. And I’m not talking here about casual relationships that almost always suffer from the natural inclination towards hedonistic pacification that governs all men.
Thing is, that neither men nor women are any better than the other in the grand scheme of things. The evil lurks in all of us. The capacity to hurt and to heal is vested equally amongst the genders. But there are certain things that one is better at than the other. The point of the post was merely to signify that you cannot give a woman a guilt trip about anything and hope to actually get away unscathed because she will find stuff to fight back and win with no matter how sincere or loving you have been. They will make stuff up even. And i say this not based merely on experience with my own limited number of exes, but based on all the women i have ever known... in all the roles that they occupy in life, this one trait is just strikingly obvious to be regarded as a peculiarity of personal nature. They're just better at it. That's all.
Like men are better at making messes, women are better with messing with their lover's heads. Maybe just to keep men on their toes, or maybe its centuries of being exploited that manifests itself even into every day interaction between a couple. But I agree its mostly pride. No one wants to know they're wrong, no one wants to be condemned. Just that women are better equipped mentally and spiritually to wage the war better.
All things are relative, of course. There are exceptions to every rule, I’m waiting to be surprised by the existence of a woman who can actually follow a lover's quarrel to its logical conclusion. Instead of turning it into an emotional battle of scars that they claim to have forgotten but never did. And multiply the pain caused by them to justify their sudden hatred towards the one they love.
But i fear its highly unlikely that one exists.
Maybe i don't understand women. But from what I have come to understand about them, the only thing that isn’t shrouded in an alluring mystery is the fact that the only way to really hang on to the one you love is total and utter submission to her desires, despite how outrageous they may seem to you. Its merely luck that saves you from having to acquiesce to the really outrageous demands that some women i have known have been able to come up with. Won't elaborate because is till don't believe that any human being in her or his right mind could ever actually want to force someone they claim to love through the pain of witnessing or condoning or committing acts so heinous that a self respecting human would seriously rather die.
Unfortunately, men have egos that get in the way of eternal bliss, if such a thing truly exists, and even when they spend their entire lives with the one they have truly loved and even die in their arms, the moments of doubt and trepidation and of wondering what the fuck have i done are too numerous to be deemed unworthy of notice. Although, perhaps ultimately that is what needs to be accomplished to find happiness. Because at the end of the day, the simplest fact of all is that the woman you love, truly and entirely love, , is most definately, worth it.
Comments
Experience speaks for itself.
This post is just fantabulous.
eternity is along time... : )
firstly, i apologize if i made it sound as though you hate/resent women in any way. it is quite impossible for me to have come to that conclusion since most of your posts are dedicated to them in some way in the first place.
secondly, true all of us may be players but then they are sub divided into moderate and extreme behaviour just like anything and everything in life is.
No men are not creeps, mostly they are immature and do not know what they want themselves. yes that is a harsh generalisation for there are some men who know exactly what they want down to the T. both kind, however, are not the essential *right* kind if such a kind exists.
once into a deep relationship i cannot bring myself to agree with you that the power to hurt more lies with the women. at the risk of sounding old fashioned im going to have to say it anyways. Women fear being left by a man in a male dominated society like ours more than a man could ever dare being left by a woman. jitna bhee hum bol dein kay equal rights this n that the ying and the yang are so not balanced in this day n age.
my point being, society will let man move on because they support him and he will get enough distractions to learn to ignore the emotional pain.
like i said , very old fashioned of me but the "new age woman" pretense is something i see right through. perhaps 1 out of 50 women can actually BE the "new age woman" who can move on without a care in the world. and im not talking about casual relationships either. do you know these days getting out of a serious relationship for either sex is no less serious than a divorce?
"you cannot give a woman a guilt trip about anything and hope to actually get away unscathed because she will find stuff to fight back and win"
more often than not its not just one side of the party that causes damage to a relationship so if women throw something bak at the men it usually isnt baseless, however i will give you this, women may exaggerate but they wont out right make stuff up unless ofcourse they are highly immature women. ( plenty of which im guessing you have come across :))
tell me something,
aren't lovers quarrels always emotional battles anyways or is that what they are turned into? i mean it always about how they FEEL about something. either of them repeating a same mistake.
then again i really wouldnt know.
your second last paragraph was of total personal vengence so i shall refrain from commenting on that. except "the only way to really hang on to the one you love is total and utter submission to her desires, despite how outrageous they may seem to you" this.
i respect your opinion but i feel its a rash judgement.
sacrafise is the name of the game.
submission to eachothers desires ...*sigh* you make a beautiful thing like that sound so utterly horrid. who wouldnt gladly give up what they could for the man/woman they love? true, each heart has to be equally pure and loving and giving.
what do you know? im an idealist too :)
last but not least, doubts are forever reoccuring. you just gotta remember what made you take that leap in the first place and youre right, both ways its most definitley worth it.
now that my dissertation of an answer is complete, till next time.
;)
Some of the things you have called men here, i have been called. And i know for a fact that these were assumptions that really had no truth in them, but i have also begun to understand how to a woman's pysche some actions may seem solely a result of immaturity.
Thing is, its impossible to tell what a woman wants and when teh same thing is going to end up pissing her off. I'm sticking steadfastly to a couple, even a married one... leaving society and its constraints aside. Eventhough the pressure to forget a past love is just as great on a man is it is on a woman. That's juts human nature, everyone wants you to seem happy regardless of what brain cells you have to kill to achieve that. So we hide, just liek women do... we hide what we feel and marry someone else and go on pretending to be happy and even perhaps finding fleeting moments of happiness with the other woman/man... but at the end of our days, and i have witnessed this too often to not use it as a basis for my own perespctive, the one stinging regret amongst all the other ones that life can bring is the regret of losing teh one we trully loved. And you know what the sad thing is, its the man, yes the callous, immature, socially supported men who crumble more often than the women beneath the weight of the memories. And no its not guilt neccessarily that forces this on, its simply not being able to go thorugh life with the one person they had actually chosen once to go through life with. Women have greater ideal's they are more romantic, less logical and yet they seem to have this inner strength that makes it easier to make whistful smiles out of broken dreams. I see this trait both with bitterness and jelousy.. for obvious reasons.
I don't believe that there is any right kind of anyone for anyone. Just the one we choose for the way they make us feel. They way no one else ever does because we learn from failure to guard ourselves against it. Its stupid to wait for the ideal to drop from heavens, maybe they do, but more often than not, its someone entiely different who can make a place for themselves in our hearts that can never again be occupied by anyone else. Yes it sounds like idealistic banter... but... thats how i feel.
And honestly, Kay in this day and age... i don't see anyone around who has any social constraints on moving on. Especially women, i mean, yeah your observation is old fashioned in tehs ense that it seems to be lingering in a world that no longer exists. Yes this is a male dominated world, but there is no male domination on women playing with feelings of thier lovers. And i mean this in the terms of the important relationships, and no i don't mean to be mean by using the word playing earlier. Just that, men who LOVE thier beus are less likely to abandon them, if for nothing else than a sense of responsibility towards the person tehy claim to love. But The woman unincumbered by the guilt that would ensue for abandoning someone, have an easier time of choosing a life that leaves no room for the man they claim to love.
Thing is, this is beginning to sound more and more like a debate about the superiority of one sex ove rthe other, and that is teh last thing that i want to be involved in. Lets just say that men and women both hurt each other more oeften than they should, especially once a relationship based on love has been established between them. We are sinners in equal parts, because the fact is t hat despite who chooses to leave, the other isn't blameless. Unless the dumper is charmed by greater riches or better looks or something materialstic which would directly indicate the person's own integrity...
The scenario is that of true love. OF being or atleats claiming to be with teh person you wnat to be woth for the rest of your life, and still choosing to move away and let go and move on.
In such a situation, its is the woman, more often than the man, who is likely to pull the plug.
Probably men do too, but in my experience, no man who has actually found the person he truly loves is dumb enough to even contenmplate letting go. Women however, will leave true love for societal considerations among other things. I don't mean to make women seem bad, or villianous or evil. Just fickle. just intinsically stronger.
Our comments are getting longer and longer... but i must adress you statment that :
'do you know these days getting out of a serious relationship for either sex is no less serious than a divorce?'
Have you not read my blog? I don't thing any one has ever made a bigger deal out of love gone bad than me :D
Let me tell you from vey personal experience... it feels worse.
Theres no greater pain than having to say good bye to the person you know you love more than you can love anyone else. Even more so, when its her choices that are making you leave. So you can probably attribute this whole argument to my personal bitterness, but i assure u, its not.
Its the majority of men married to women they settled for, who end up actually loving them and then end up bitter when these men are unable to reciprocate because the woman they actually loved, up and left them long before thier wives ever came into thier lives.
But anyway i will end this here, and adress your remaining question in another comment when i have more time.
But it seems like you're basing your understanidng of relationships more on fantasy than on experience. It ends up being much different when you practically peg the genders against each other under the guise of mkaing love work. Its tough, only because of these little steretyped gender based niggles that really have no resolution except total obedience from only one end, which is unfair, or reaching a very intelligent leavel of mutual comrpomise which is quite near impossible.
Ever wonder why no happy love story ever made it to legendary status? Its not because they're not as dramatic, but rather because they don't exist.
No one can relate to them. You will loose the person you love either to death or to circumstance. Thats teh way it is, and then you learn your lessons from it, and either make teh best of what you end up with, coming to terms with what you got, or you remain bitter and hang on to teh love that never coud;ve been and go to yoru grave with a stupid smile of victory against what the world expected you to do.
But my god have we seen/gone through different experiences in our lives or what? perhaps im unreeling from a recent blows to people who are like my sisters to me and what they have had to face.
after readong ure last thesis of a comment ( ;) ) i sat down and thought of all the serious relationships around me...miraculously all ended by men for astonishing reasons the classic i might add being the man ending a five year relationship saying "youre too good for me, i can never repay you for all that you have done for me- so im gonna dump you" (the last part was my addition mainly because the whole thing is pretty ridiculous)
but see, i dont see this as an argument over what the better sex is... its really a matter about who the better PERSON is. rather than a battle of the sexes its the battle of personalities.
"Some of the things you have called men here, i have been called"- i went and re read my post- i really cannot recall calling men anything besides immature, and that i standby.
"And honestly, Kay in this day and age... i don't see anyone around who has any social constraints on moving on"- :)
imagine being a girl dumped at 30 after a four year relationship with marraige as a talk of future plans while you were with that person. id get into details but then that would trigger a battle of experiences and that i feel is disrespecting someones feelings- the point is my friend, its *not* a very easy life here in Pakistan for a lot of females as we would allllll like to believe.
"I don't believe that there is any right kind of anyone for anyone"
possibly ONE thing we CAN agree on :)
"But it seems like you're basing your understanidng of relationships more on fantasy than on experience"- i wish. if that were honestlly the case i would have plunged into relationships in a heartbeat myself.
i have more to say but its seems like both of us lack the time to fully write what we are thinking.
true, maybe it shall come out in another post sometime in the future after all , i HAVE read ure blog ;) and i dont think its theme is going to change for a while.
as always this exchange has been a pleasure.
But you know, i'm willing to admit that guys can be asswipes. If you admit that women can be too. I guess its just differs from person to person, some men aren't as hmmm romantically inclined as i am, or women as brutal as i deem them all to be.
But yeah, my freinds have suffered more at the hands of thier girlfriends then vice versa. Guess we can just say that nice guys get fucked just as bad as nice girls do. It would be too much of a good thing if a nice guy and nice girl ended up together. So it doen't happen very often.
By nice i mean sincere, loyal and steadfast. not to say that hey lack any pther virtues that could classify as nice... but yeah some men will do stupid things, irresponsible inhuman things... but women can be very cruel too. But i don't even concern myself with those women, simply with the ones who manage to walk away from something the guy never could.
So truce.. We suck, and so do u. Moral of the story, Walk away...
Reading the entire post along with the comments was a thought provoking journey. Both Bek and Kay, you guys have made excellent arguements and explored the psyche of men and women pretty objectively to an extent. I'd say both of you are right and wrong all in the same, just like every other thing in life. Most of that we see, feel or experience is owed to perceptions, perspectives, view points etc watever you want to call it.
We all know men and woman are DIFFERENT. So hence your comparisions were futile, i.e. the arguement can continue till eternity. But I have to point out, its a well known fact and well researched facet that women more than men can handle emotionally charged situations or issues. This is a biological adaptation. Alongside a women goes through various changes physical and hormonal etc throughout her life, hence women have a higher threshold of pain. Maybe that is what spills over to other aspects of her life. Moreover women are more likely to talk things out with friends etc, so they might be better able to deal with emotional demands, whereas we all know men tend to keep things in, due to social pressure and expectations.
So when the man is sincere he tends to lose control and spiral downnn.
The drama/ battle of the sexes is as old as the very existence of human life. There is no point in playing the blaming game, as both Kay and Bek, you guys realised towards the climax of your discussion. Both men and women have thier share of black sheep that ruin the names of both sexes. All we can do is try and view life more objectively when our personal situations get helixed/ twisted!
Cause no two people are the same.
Heres to men/women, can't liv with them, can;t live without them!
Sonia
Anyway I really don't think there is any space for more arguements. This debate will take forever. I really enjoyed reading the post and comments.
haha, the trip lasted only about 14hrs but damn the hangover stuck around for 2 more days leaving me without hunger and pain.
If you hadn't know as yet, I think you blog is great, I've left comments on over a handful of posts.
Keep them coming!
Sonia
Sonia: You're right, there's no point in playing the blaming game, but i can't help shake the feeling that most of our problems rise from believing in stereotypes. This inturn allows each sex to give teh other a lot less leeway in terms of proving themselves different from average humanity. One slip up and we condemn each other as typical and therefore not worth the effort or worth the effor only due to sense of responsibility or need instead of love. Only through discussion and enlightened conversation can we hope to bridge the chasm between us. I think the chief cause of relationships going bad is the lack of understanding. Sure circumstances rule everything, parents, family, freinds, women are swayed by these factors while men are usually controlled by expectations, role-models, family... but all in all our giviences as well as our hopes and desires are much the same. But we get caught up in the roles we are expected to follow and loose sight of what needs to be done to salvage a relationship. Through better understanding of each other's psyche alone can we hope to overcome the differences centuries of eventual indifference has bestowed upon us. Isn't it sad that most beautiful of human interactions, the most poignant, the most thought provoking, the most idealised and romanticised and the most wished for owing to the euphoria it can induce, is also in thr same breath the most ostercized, the most agonizing and often even the most reviled, because the insufferable pain it can induce.
Its no big secret that men are women are supposed to work together in some sort of harmony to make the world continue to exist, and yet we fail to find thr true nature of our relationships letting it instead be governed by our natural inclinations, circumstances and insecurities.
But alas, it is a battle that has been going on forever and perhaps there isn't much that i can contribute towards a solution for it, but i do believe it is important time and again to raise the question, if for notheing else but to see if we are any closer to a resolution or drifting farther apart.
I wish Kay and i could've had this discussion on a forum which wasn't restricted by so many considerations, and that you and arian and everyone else who has a say in the matter coud've joined in and maybe we cou'dve walked away from it with a softer view of each other. Willing to be kinder the next time around we found ourselves in a relationship that demanded understanding.
But, we both conceded our points, in favor of a more diplomatic view... and come to think of it, on a personal level, that ain't half bad.
I also agree when you said it's imp. to keep the chain of thoughts linking.. and exchanging.
Sonia