Ain?

So do you know Samosa?
No she isn't linked from my blog, which is due to gross incompetence on my part. That shall be fixed soon. Samosa is a delicious deep fried product of the sub continent, its usually stuffed with potatoes of minced meat but the one i'm talking about is stuffed with great gobs of intelligence and grace and a shit load of other stuff that most of us can only admire since we aren't liked enough by god to be blesses with them attributes. Like class, and sensitivity etc. Okay i sound like i'm 13 yrs old with a crush on the english teacher, but no... see too old for crushes so its just me recognizing the presence of aspects usually found missing in most people.
Okay so this actually isn't about Samosa, its more about her blog. Infact a post on her blog and the minor discussion that developed in the comments section. In this discussion i offer my opinion which in a nut shell states that it is so much better to connect with a potential spouse on a personal, one on one level well before marrying them. All of those who know me here know that if i MEANT to say sex i would've said sex, when i say one on one or whatever i mean it strictly in a non-fucking sense.
Now this view, happend to contradict a gentleman who visits Samosa's blog and goes by the name of Abu Sinan. Now from what ive gathered about this dude is that he's a recent convert to Islam. I think someone who has the guts to bring such a huge change in his life, deserves admiration. But i feel he's taking scripture a bit too literally. Khair that is besides the point and i know he's going to rake me over hot caols for that statement but i take a very kind view of Islam and Allah, i believe when Allah says he loves us more than our parents and therefore i think we should do likewise and this for me at least, fearing someone i love just seems a bit absurd. Any how, that's a much more explosive discussion, what this post is about is Abu Sinan's claim that the bestest way is the way of our culture, he incidentally got hitched online which i have nothing against except to say that its a bit too platonic for my taste. But Kudos to him and all the other folk that i know of who have taken similat leaps of faith.
I however think that be it an online courtship or an arranged hook up, the thing missing is any knowledge of things that only become evident after sharing your life with someone, you everyday routine. Things like how one does teh budgeting for the house, or what kind of shower curtains they like. Things that you discover only when you are stuck in a certain dynamic with someone... through emails or phone convos or chatting, sure you can tell a lot of truths but you can also keep a lot of them hidden. I don't mean to suggest that we should all spend an year alone in an apartment off the coast of tuscany with our prospective spouses, freinds learn everything there is to know about each other just by hanging out together, couples do this just by going out for long drives, devoid of make out sessions even, by having dinner in secluded spots, by splitting the bill, or by footing the bill. By being with thier old freinds, seeing how they react to each other. All i'm saying is that its important to know what the hell you're getting into before getting knew deep into it without an out remaining.
Abu Sinan, disagrees. He thinks i have shunned my roots and have went a long long way from my culture. Well, no, i haven't shunned my roots, i shunned a Life of Independence and fornication in America to come be with my parents in Pakistan because of my roots. As for teh culture, i have tremednous hatred for the desi culture, i hate it, its disgusting and gross, not because it is Islamic but because it only pretends to be Islamic. I think all desi culture loving ppl our hypocrites because that is what our culture preaches. Fuck around all you want but as long as you don't own up to it, its okay, and only that long, cuz if word gets out you shall be honor-killed. Cheat, lie, decieve, corrode everyone else's roots just so you get to feel like you're better than everybody else. And again, let me re-iterate that its not the Islamic culture that i'm dissing here, its the desi one. The Islamic culture as i understand it does not exist anywhere in the world but if it did yes, definately life would be better as a whole because everybody would be tolerant and smiley faced and nice to each other, co-existing in peace and harmony, laughing and joking around while being extremely professional, courteous, competent and over all good human beings. There would be no fornication and everyone would have a happy marriage with the person they loved, just like the Prophet's first, and you know, the world in general would be the Utopia i suppose the lord of all things wanted it to be. But it ain't so because we humans are imperfect and easily tempted and led into the darker side of things. Inculding religion. Extremism is after all something that is an offshoot of religious zeal and fervor, it is a bad bad thing, i hope we all have consensus on that.
But what i believe about human relatioships have very little to do with religion and everything to do with expereince, expectation and ultimately, faith. I have faith that i will find someone with who i can co-exist peacefully. Expectations tell me what to look for and expereince tells me to actually make sure its there before plunging head first into the river that might end up pretty damn shallow. Now based on this, i think i have every reason to say that yes its is mui importante to actually know the person you're marrying before you marry them., and by know i con't mean thier name, and thier dress size, or how deep the rabbit hole goes. But at least know of the quirks in thier nature that you will have to either put up with or reject when the going gets tough.
Abu Sinan believes otherwise. Although we share the same point of view in terms of not propogating a marriage devoid of any communcation between bride and groom whatsoever, i feel that the basis for a sound marriage should be a complete understanding of each other in the situation which you will be spending most of your lives in, that is one on one, without the constant presence of parents and or relatives to neuter your real self in order to better suit the situation. You find someone you want to marry, not just fuck, spend time with them, alone. Get to know what they're like in different situations. Marriage to me isn't just about making babies and raising them, its about fulfilling out lives, finding the perfect extensions of ourselves. Don't sleep with them until you've wed, just be with them. Share fears and sorrows, face to face, know what he's like when used for an anchor, and what she's like when vented upon. Maybe some people can achieve that through emails and chatting, i can not.
I think for us to assume that everyone wants just sex from the opposite sex although prudent is also a bit restrictive because even though everyone wants sex, it doesn't mean that thier going to rape you to get it just cuz yur sharing the same breathing space. I also strongly object to Abu Sinan's rationalization that Muslim Men don't marry girls they've fucked because i think that's extremely hypocritical. If you sleep with women or mn randomly, your a slut. No one wants to marry a slut and no one should because chances are rare they'll make good husbands. But if you shun people just because they've felt safe enough with someone who didn't last to be that intimate with, you're unjust. And if you're the sort who will fuck around and then want a virgin for a wife, you're an asshole. If love can transcend all sucn trivialities and focus on the bigger aim of spiritual fulfilment, shouldn't marriages follow suit? Men who fuck around don't deserve good, god fearing virgins so how is it the responsibility of good god fearing women to keep themselves 'pure' just so some fuck-all will be interested in them? I think sexually expereinced our more mature and easier to get along with because they can tell the difference between a lecher and a genuinely caring person. But again, that's just me.
Now what this post is about is primarily to put across my point of view as opposed to Abu Sinan's, get people visiting my blog to comment about thier opinions about this and to present a better forum than someone else's blog to both Abu Sinan and I to continue this discussion on.
And no i'm not fishing for comments, simply trying to understand his point of view and to make him see why mine is what it is.
A lot of ther issues came up during the argument on Samosa's blog, which i think should be addressed, but in context. Like our understanding of religion, and its importance in our lives and why i'd rather be fiercely faithful than extremely religious. The issue of rituals which i think have hijacked faith and are now governing our perception and skeweing it in one direction or the other.
Middle ground is important, on this again, i agree with Abu Sinan, but i fear we can never find it if you stick to your views like velcro and me to mine like pubic hair.

Comments

jummy bear said…
"And if you're the sort who will fuck around and then want a virgin for a wife, you're an asshole"

You just summed up all of desiland. Sad as it is, it's the truth. That is in reality what happens. Atleast 99% of the time. It makes me sick and it's exactly what's kept me away from matrimony.
ooh, an angry beknighted! niiice.

i already commented on samosa's blog (even though you ORDERED - in desi man style - everyone to move to a different forum). however, since i LOVE this topic, i am quite willing to start all over again.

obviously i agree with you. a blanket statement like 'muslim men do not marry women they've screwed' is crap especially since i'm marrying my boyfriend of two years in about 3 weeks and we've done the dirty several times. so have countless friends of mine. and yes, there are assholes who want virgins after they've gone abroad and screwed 500 goris and want a 'taaait larki' for their wedding night but really, who the hell wants to marry those assholes except the idiot virgins who held on to their precious hymen precisely to land a 'successful and rich' hypocrite who will give them security and ten babies? they deserve each other, let them rot in marital hell.

like i said on samosa's blog, we're not running away from culture, we're trying to evolve. abu sinan is not living in desi land surrounded by 150 million desis judging him constantly. we are. and we're acutely aware of all the flaws of it because we have to deal with the hypocrisy and the bullshit every single day. i come from a pretty liberal family but i've always had a curfew which was imposed apparently for safety but really, it had far more to so with SOCIETY and what would people say. and that's IT. everything in desiland revolves around 'what would people say'? every desi girl is brought up with this line 'you can do what you want in your husband's house' as if wearing a miniskirt ceases to be 'sin' once you're married. like you said, desiland has nothing to do with islam, it is not governed by islamic laws, it is governed by society and what gossipy aunties may say about our virginal daughters and sisters.

and so, we want to evolve. we want to marry partners WE choose, not ones that our parents like based on a set criteria because a successful banker can still make a lousy husband and be a lousy lay. and i don't see anything wrong with that. Islam is about far more than what woman can or can't do, so i find it really retarded when every discussion about being muslim boils down to what the girl wears or does. what the hell happened to the other qualities of being a good muslim like not judging? about being a good person? respecting your elders? being a good neighbour? being kind to animals?

God is supposed to be ever merciful, not HITLER. he is not waiting for us to fuck so he can gleefully burn us for it. it is NOT that literal. the guidelines for living are just that: guidelines. if you, as a moral, thinking, intelligent person, feel like making a decision that goes against the guidelines, it's okay, because God is not a monster who will eat you up for it.

i hate how islam is preaced in desiland, turning God into this vindictive, vengeful merciless entity because i refuse to believe that someone that created me and this incredible universe could be anything but as compassionate and kind as some of his creations.
sorry, i tend to get extremely worked up abt some things and go on and on and obviously, this is one of them.

also, typo alert: 'he is not waiting for us to fuck UP'
[snip]Don't sleep with them until you've wed, just be with them.[/snip]
This brings me hope, and that's a good thing, right? ;)

ps- still waiting on the details about last night, time for a girl to girl gossipness :D
pps - for a minute I thought I wrote girl on girl..hehe...I hate early mornings
blarkh said…
sadly, most people who claim to understand religion to a t dont know much beyond very bookish knowledge.ours is a religion that allows flexibility to wrap itself around the norms of a changing world , and nowhere does it say marry the rabbit ur folks picked out of a hat with their eyes closed and urs blindfolded.and really, if the most degenerate fuckos in the world want a white virginal wife,and want to use religion as an excuse for their own paranoia, they should refer back to the ayat that clearly states that each man will get a wife equal in deeds to theirs.(not a word for word quote but in essence correct)

i couldnt read samosa's post, but what i gathered from yours is something iv wondered/fumed about often.
oh and i think ur the biggest comment-attractor -blogger -person that iv seen,possibly becasue(and i repeat a thought)what u write is real,and the way u write is even more so.
أبو سنان said…
I have never been to your blog before but decided to visit based on the conversation we have been having on Samosa'a blog.

I will try to address the points you make in your post and clear a few things up. First of all, I am not a recent convert to Islam. I have been a Muslim for going on 9 years now. I guess we could get into the semantics of things, but I wouldnt consider 9 years to be recent.

You say I am taking scripture a bit too literally. I would wonder what scripture do you think that is? Do you think this is a scriptural basis to dating, co-habitating or the like? It is one thing to stretch The Qur'an or Hadith to try and prove a far off point, it is another to state the obvious. Islam, Judaism and Christianity all forbid pre-marital sex and co-habitation. I dont think one has to stretch scriptures to come to this conclusion.

Allah does love us more than our parents, so I would view His prohibition on pre-marital sex as a part of this. Studies in the West have shown that marriages that came out of co-habitation have a lower rate of success than those from where pre-marital sex did not take place. This isnt from Islamic sources, this is from Western American sources.

You keep on pointing to culture, but see I think that is the MAJOR problem in "Islamic" countries today. They often mistake culture for religion, the idea being if we are a "Muslim" country, then our practices must be Muslim or Islamic. That is not the case.

I do not come from a "Islamic" culture, therefor these cultures do not affect my thinking, the only thing that affects my thinking is the religion itself. The second you start confusing religion and culture you are going to get led astray.

See, having been raised in the typical American lifestyle I can assert that living with someone before marriage does not give you all the details that one needs for marriage. You will never know these things until you get married. Your excuse is one that is common amoungst those who are afraid of marriage, so they point to other things rather than deal with the real issues at hand.

People can, and do keep things hidden even when they get married, so to assume that living with someone will force them to divulge these is folly. People, can and do keep things secret and hide them in the hopes that it will help them to get married.

You never know "what the hell you are getting into" until you really get into it. Your basic premise would then mean that you have to experience everything in life before you can know whether or not you are compatable.

What if you have different styles of raising children? Maybe you should have children before you get married just to make sure? What if you are not compatable in sex? One must find out before you get married right?

You can hate the Desi culture all you want. That is fine, but once again you are talking about culture when I am not. I am talking religion and I think, at your very base, you are talking about culture, they are two very different things. In many cases Desi culture stands at odds with Islam, the problem is many in the Desi culture dont realise it.

So "diss" Desi culture all you want, but the stuff you advocating is not just anti-culture, it is anti religion. Messing around might be against the culture, but more importantly it is against the religion. The religion offers no double standard, men and women should not do it, it is the culture with the double standards.

Extremism is bad, but it isnt always a religious thing. Extremism is often an anti-relgious thing, a rejection of religion, as we see in places like France, Tunisia and Morroco. It is also seen in some people from "Muslim" countries who become extreme in their rejection of what the religion teaches.

You say that the things you believe about human relationships have very little to do with religion, yet you then state that it ultimately rests in "faith". But what faith is that?

Your "experience" can never tell you what marriage is really like. I have lived with a woman in the past, it didnt prepare me for the marriage, it didnt prepare me for anything. I guess you will figure that out when you get there. Experience is just that, experience, and you do not know what anything will be like until you do it, even marriage. So living with someone will not really prepare you for marriage. If it did the studies would prove that couples who lived together before marriage would be more successful when they get married, but in fact the studies say the opposite.

As to "S" who contends that men from Muslim lands commonly marry the girls they have been "shagging" for years, again that is not my experience. My experience has been that men from "Muslim" lands tend to shag someone, then when it is time to find someone to marry they get someone their family will accept. Most families from Islamic countries will not accept such a relationship, a woman, nor her marriage to their son.

When I have seen a man from a Muslim country marry a girl he has been with, once the marriage does happen he normally tends into a fiend. See, his culture teaches him that if the woman will sleep with him outside of marriage, that she is rather loose and cannot be trusted.

So there is a basic lack of trust from the very begining, of course this wasnt there before the marriage, but it comes with the honeymoon. I have seen that on a couple of occasions. But like I tried to tell Sajjad, that is one of the things you wont find out until it happens.

It is wrong that this standard only applies to the women, but that is the culture, not the religon.

As to the person who said that often people's knowledge is "bookish" I would contend that the best sort of knowledge is indeed of the "bookish" varoety, mixed with real world experience.

I have spent a lot of time in the Middle East and North Africa, I speak Arabic. I have seen the religious extremists, and I have seen those "Muslims" that go wild the second they set into the US, only to go back to being "pious" when they head back to their Islamic homeland.

I am against extremism of all kinds, the religious sort, and those that would be extreme and ignore their religion and make up any and all excuse to by pass it. All extremism is wrong.

God is merciful, but that doesnt mean He doesnt have expectations of you. His mercy isnt an excuse to flout his laws, to disobey Him.
Barooq said…
Lolzzz
What a good Just man you are dear.
I donot think I have time to read all the comments through and then participate in a debate which I consider essentially pointless. Sorry for that dear.
I do have a question btw.
What do you mean by 'bigger aim of spiritual fulfilment'? I mean I am clueless about what 'spiritual fulfilment' is. Mind helping me understand the concept in tangible form?
Anonymous said…
What exactly is the contention that is being debated here, I may have missed the point...?
I think it is quite clear that Islam does not approve of pre-marital sex or co-habitation (needless to say, for guys or girls), so it is pointless to argue about that point.
The hypocricsy in applying these values in our culture is a whole different issue and is sickening to say the least.
That aside, I do think it is important for prospective spouses to get to know each other well before they tie the knot...and there are many creative, not-sex ways to do that, the later may even complicate the effort to understand someone (minus the hormone surges).
Phitaymaun said…
The amount of time this will take for me to respopnd to is not available right now, but soon i shall adress all the things pointed out here...

However i'd like to know why almost everyone is still assuming that i'm preaching sex before marriage here, i stated fairly clearly that that is exactly what i'm not talking about. I'm referring to bonding without the inticmacy, about connecting on an emotional, spiritual level.

S: Its uncanny how similiar your views and mine are,,, even the words i use are more or less the same. We'd get along splendidly i shud think, and i mean it in a totally NON SEXUAL WAY!
All the freinds i have, save for one, were sleeping with thier current spouses looooooooooong before marriage was in the pipeline. I don't even know what retards are these guys talking about who wudn't wanna marry the women they lovge, understand, enjoy fucking even just because she has slept with them. My ex used to say her dad used to tell her that i would inevitable say that, even back then this sounded extremely repulsive to me and it continues to be repulsive.
Anonymous said…
abu sinan,

the reason Sajjad and i both brought up culture is because YOU did, in Samosa's blog:

" I have zero respect for those people who run so fast from their own culture and their own background. These people are not grounded in theirselves and their own background. Be proud of where you come from, be proud of where you are, and try to mix the two together to come up with something of your own.

There is a middle ground between the two cultures that must be met, and I dont like people who go to either extreme."


and also, no offense but you're arguing with two people who have a combined 55 years of exposure to muslim men, countries, women and culture...and are still living IN muslim countries surrounded by thousands of couples, many of whom have engaged in either pre-marital relations of some sort or dated and are successfully married. i think you shooting down my arguments with words like 'ín my experience' or talking about a couple of occassions that negate my views doesn't really seem like the most convincing or valid argument.

oh and i think you have very little faith in men or have just met some really pathetic, close minded ones. yes, there are retards out there but many, many men are secure even if there partner has slept with them OR other men before marriage, in fact, many prefer that to the idea of an inexperienced virgin.

why are we acting so holier than thou? has everyone forgotten about those couples who dated for 4 years in college, and then got married and now send us news of a new baby every year?!
Anonymous said…
even if THEIR* partner

(must learn to proof-read)!
Anonymous said…
havent read samosa's post. what is the issue here though, knowning someone before you get married, falling in "love", or getting married without spending time with the person. this is all bullshit. each his own. The way Islam is it assumes everyone is good, kind and will be faithful to their spouses, can adjust easily. But thats not the reality. We arent all that good. That being said I dont think not knowing the person you marry is a good idea nor do i think living in is a good option. Coz you are bound to have problems, no two pple are alike. They cant be. Living in gives you the carte blanche to end it whenever you want. Tolerance is super low. So what? Whereas marriage doesnt? Theres divorce too. Its catch 22 situation. Ideally its best to get married to someone you love, but if you cant its ok to marry someone who is trust worthy sincere and honest. Love will soon follow. Some may oppose this, i know. But the truth is the more you talk to a person the more attached you get, the more likely for you to "fall in love".
Anonymous said…
Dude your internet connection is shite!

Talk later gator!
waj said…
[Ref: Anonymous(was) here]
Beknighted,
Exactly! Power to knowledge-(fill in with your favorite interpretation). Marriage should not be a blind date.
Anonymous said…
dude.
of course you are fishing for comments. :D :P

What are we looking for here? An answer to 'arranged or love'? (the use of the cliched line is deliberate, to emphasise that this debate has been going on long enough to be a cliche).

To the best of my limited knowledge, there is no SINGLE answer. I can quite easily vote for the arranged bit. But that is my opinoin. And Beknighted knows this, as I remember talking to him about this at me place as well.

I had the pleasure of reading some of the comments here.
This 'S' person is obviously worked up, as she confessed in her subsequent comment; you got the guidelines part right. A guidelines in the form of a signboard that says 'turn left'. You can choose to go right, or go str8, but you will then not be on the road of where you, as a person, ought to be. It is quite simple. Another interesting point in 's' comment is that she has mixed up desi culture with ISlam itself. anyways, who am I to blow against the wind.

The fact a lot of ppl indugle in pre-marital fornication/sex/dirty-sanchez/whatever is irrelevant. Because in marriage, you 'experience' in EVERYTHING counts and holds equal weithage, so this part is just part of so, so many. And to the best of my, again limited knowledge, marriage (basically a successful relationship) can be boiled down to the golden words; 'wilful compromise'. I scratch your back, you scratch mine sorta thing. (does that qualify as mutual backrub?). You gotta like giving up or taking up stuff for your spouse, BECAUSE you have seen your spouse do the same. It is a beautiful balance, but only if you get it right. God have mercy on our souls...

the simplest and the BEST answer to 'which is better, arranged or hooked' is, "it depends". Both have EQUAL chances of failure, hence equal chances of success.

And about Sinan's comments, well, Islam does allow for you to 'know' your spouse. you can meet and talk, before getting married. of course, now its like those MObilink ads, where there is a little * that says 'conditions apply'. For conditions do apply. The kind of 'meetings' Beknigted is talking about, I really don't know if they are doable. And one IMPORTANT point of difference is that I am quite, quite sure that these meetings, these getting-to-know-yous are really, really not worth ANYTHING. They do not serve any purpose that can lead to a successfull marriage, period. I am quite confident on this point. But I understand people hve opinions that they are as sure about. So, whatever.

But of course, not many people say that Islam does allow that one can meet their potential spouses, and they dont say that for good reason. Again, this is our 'culture's fault. We are not educated enough to know the importance and requirement of numerous restraints, restraints on gender-mixing being one of them. Imagine people here being told that they can meet under Islam; they will blow it outta proportion, so many hormonally charged yuppies will be renting out rooms to 'check out our compatibility', even that in the name of Islam. That of course, will amount to total, un-adulterated bullshit.

Of course, this discourse is my opinion, I can and probably am wrong on many counts, and await correction. Ensure you bring references, patience and some cigarettes to the table.
peace n God Bless.
Anonymous said…
i re-read some of the post and the comments and i just had to say this:

a lot of fucking goin' 'round up in 'ere, in'it!? :P
ali said…
I go to Ozair's blog, click on a random link and that damned shouting match from Samosas is here again. I run from it and it follows me, haunts me. I am done dealing with the typical bigotry of the majority of the Paki/muslim comment there, so I wouldn't flame out here either.

sajjad, now I can put a blog to the comments on that other blog. And S, good job having my back when every stupid person in the world piled-on on me.

Sajjad, the pubic hair analogy wouldn't work if you were a hippie.
Reej Q said…
to each, his or her own opinion!! why is that such a big issue? whoever wants to have sex before marriage / marry someone he or she's had sex with before marriage / doesn't want to marry them, etc... may HAPPILY do so. to each his or her own faith. let God be the judge of it... it is obviously not in our 'culture' to come to a midpoint agreeable to both parties... whereas it invariably IS in our 'religion' to do so. and so we're back to square one... lol :P *pulls out her hair*
Anonymous said…
I think Ali is being a little melodramatic... Chalo... I have no control over what becomes what on my blog.. It's just terribly entertaining. But I think we discussed this already righty-O

So my Pathan hot rod... What's happening?

Isheeta and I went serching for hot desi ass tonight... surpise suprise, we came home empty handed... sigh...

Message me lates...

Puppies,
S
Phitaymaun said…
Rights and wrongs become pretty cut and dry as we grow up.
I guess the only thing left to say is that those of us who want virgins for our wives eventhough we aren't virgins ourselves are nasty, shallow hypocrites and deserve nothing more than our disgust.
The ones who aren't buggered as much about the mileage on thier wive's nether regions as they are by, say, how good she is with kids or how respectful she is towards our parents, or how sensible she is, or how confident, capable, caring... or even how well she cooks, or how brave she is in bed... anything at all really, are dumb because we could probably get ourselves a virgin instead of a 'chala hua kaartoos' (used goods) cuz the assholes from the preceding paragraph manage to land them.
The few who are virgins themselves are perhaps the ones who actually deserve to be with virgins cause obviously they have stuff in common and will probably respect the other person's views more than any of the other possible combinations.

Basically, to each his own... but even in this diplomatic cop out, i guess its pretty damn obvious where the evilest of intentions lie... Rights and wrongs are pretty cut and dry, as i said.

As for a courtship less wedding... i'll simply say that is like a virgin without a hymen. Dissect that whichever way you want to, hate me all you can but seriously, leave the virgins alone, they deserve better than you and me.

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